Ruth Penfold (00:58)
welcome back to Women Who Lead. And I am so excited to have Sylvia joining me, who is, is it CEO and Chief Investment Officer? Is that right, Sylvia? For Ellivest?
Sylvia Kwan (01:10)
Yes, that's correct.
Ruth Penfold (01:12)
Yeah? Beautiful. So first of all, welcome. Thank you for being here.
Sylvia Kwan (01:15)
Thank you.
Sylvia Kwan (01:16)
Thank Thank you, Ruth.
Ruth Penfold (01:17)
I'm so excited to have you here because I mean like in the little pre chat we've just said the word wealth care. I know, gang, you should be as excited as I am because this is like I'm like I wanna skip straight there, but I'm well I'll I'll I'll edge us in, Sylvia.
Sylvia Kwan (01:34)
Okay. Okay, sounds good.
Ruth Penfold (01:36)
Leg just
Ruth Penfold (01:36)
in. I'll let you see. So I but I do like to dive right into the middle, right? And and just really ask you to share with us what does it mean for you to be in bloom in at work and in your life right now in the season that you're in.
Sylvia Kwan (01:53)
For me, Ruth, to be in bloom, for for me it means being totally comfortable in my own skin.
Ruth Penfold (02:01)
Ooh.
Sylvia Kwan (02:03)
And really having the confidence in both work and in life to make unconventional decisions, try new things, trust my own experience, kind of my own mileage, rather than, which is what I have done for most of my life, kind of filter my decisions kind of through others' lens or what the lens of what others might expect of me.
Ruth Penfold (02:28)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (02:29)
and I feel that I've reached this point, and I've only done so because, you know, I'm older and have many decades under my belt now. I've reached a point where I really no longer kind of overweight what other people think. And it doesn't mean that I don't listen. I take it as an input, obviously, but it really means that I trust myself and I value my own thinking and my own intuition.
Ruth Penfold (02:56)
that is so powerful, everything that you've just said there. But I have a follow-on question, because I ponder this a lot, right? So I'm 46 now, which means peramenopause is perion, right?
Sylvia Kwan (03:07)
Yeah.
Ruth Penfold (03:08)
And I can feel myself as if waking up from a dream, Sylvia, as the hormone levels,
Sylvia Kwan (03:12)
Yes.
Ruth Penfold (03:13)
right? And also I happen to specialize specifically in the experiences of women in the world and all that good stuff. But tell me.
Ruth Penfold (03:22)
Is this just a rite of passage for women? It are we just pre-bro pre-programmed through our hormones to be very others focused and then as we age we wake up from that? Or do we think that there's some like it what's your view there? Do you think that there's another opportunity available for us there?
Sylvia Kwan (03:43)
A hundred percent. And
Sylvia Kwan (03:45)
I, you know, that's it's a really interesting point that you bring up. And I hadn't thought about it that way, but I now let you know, there's a lot of thoughts going through my head now. And I do think you're absolutely right. We are, I don't know if it's DNA, don't know if it's condition, I don't know if it's societal, just expectations, right? Women are often what I call the chief care officers of
Ruth Penfold (04:08)
Always, yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (04:09)
everything.
Sylvia Kwan (04:10)
Everything exactly but ourselves.
Ruth Penfold (04:12)
Yes.
Sylvia Kwan (04:13)
Right. And I see this in particularly with my my own mother, my mother-in-law, who are in their 80s and 90s now, and they're finally, you know, they're they're both widows, and you know, they don't have anybody to take care of right now because kids are adults, right? but even then when I will ask something as simple as, Where do you want to go for dinner?
Ruth Penfold (04:38)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (04:40)
I find they have a hard time expressing what they want. It's like, well, s you love seafood, so let's go there. Or so-and-so doesn't eat X, Y, and Z, so let's not go there. And I'm like, no, mom, where do you want to go?
Ruth Penfold (04:57)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (04:58)
You know, it's just even these, there's every I think women are so used to really thinking of others first and caring for
Ruth Penfold (05:05)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (05:05)
others. And then
Sylvia Kwan (05:07)
All of a sudden they're like, it's only myself that I have to worry about and I I don't even know what those choices look like.
Ruth Penfold (05:14)
Right. And where do you begin? I was very fortunate
Sylvia Kwan (05:16)
Yeah.
Ruth Penfold (05:17)
to have this have the beginning of that kind of awakening in my early 30s where
Sylvia Kwan (05:22)
Hmm.
Ruth Penfold (05:22)
a male friend actually asked me, he actually said, Look, Penfold, because that's what he was calling me. He said, Look,
Sylvia Kwan (05:28)
Ha ha ha.
Ruth Penfold (05:29)
Penfold, don't you think that you deserve to be happy too? And I was like,
Sylvia Kwan (05:35)
Ha ha
Ruth Penfold (05:36)
and the women listening will be like, Yeah, like,
Sylvia Kwan (05:39)
Yeah, yeah.
Ruth Penfold (05:39)
that makes sense. Well of course she would think like that, right?
Sylvia Kwan (05:42)
Right.
Ruth Penfold (05:43)
But I
Ruth Penfold (05:43)
was like, he was I was like, but where do I like, okay, this was such an abstract, like mind-blowing conversation.
Sylvia Kwan (05:50)
Yeah.
Ruth Penfold (05:51)
I was like, where do I begin? And he said so simply, well, you just start with making little happy choices every day. Like, okay, what would Ruth most like to have for dinner today? This or this? He was like, or even simpler, do I want to turn left down this street?
Ruth Penfold (06:12)
All right down this street. And that's honestly where I I began. Like Operation, I call it Operation
Sylvia Kwan (06:19)
Amazing. Yeah.
Ruth Penfold (06:20)
Ruthlessly Penfold because my middle name is actually
Sylvia Kwan (06:22)
I love it.
Ruth Penfold (06:23)
Leslie. But that's where it began because I was like, you mean you mean I get that? Like, are you sure? Isn't that crazy?
Sylvia Kwan (06:32)
That
Sylvia Kwan (06:32)
is that is amazing. I mean, I'm I'm so pleased to know that you started earlier. And honestly, I do think the younger generations are definitely more aware. I see that. Yeah, which
Ruth Penfold (06:43)
I can see it. I can see it. Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (06:45)
I'm very happy to see for sure.
Ruth Penfold (06:47)
Yeah,
Ruth Penfold (06:47)
it's beautiful. It's beautiful. but you also mentioned something there in the beginning about it's all part of the same thing about, you know, caring what others think, needing to check.
Sylvia Kwan (06:58)
Yeah.
Ruth Penfold (06:59)
And, you know, the the transition into CEO, which I am determined to see more women make, right? But it can feel it's a bit of a shift, right? Because you're going
Sylvia Kwan (07:12)
Yeah.
Ruth Penfold (07:12)
from
Ruth Penfold (07:13)
First of all, conditioning as a woman, which means that we have to make sure everybody else is okay first, right?
Sylvia Kwan (07:18)
Yes.
Ruth Penfold (07:19)
To then really, you know, and I've spoken to many CEOs about this, that shift into wait, no, it's me and I I make these decisions and I have to stand by. Like, so how did you actually find that process of stepping into that, that power?
Sylvia Kwan (07:39)
Yes. I I don't I think it's I think I'm still in process.
Ruth Penfold (07:44)
Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Kwan (07:45)
and I say that because I I never from a very so so I yeah, I was very shy as
Ruth Penfold (07:52)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (07:52)
a child. I'm the daughter of immigrants in in a part of this culture, you know, in the in the Chinese culture, so I'm of of Chinese ethnicity. you know, it's it's all about humility.
Ruth Penfold (08:03)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (08:04)
Right, it's not it's about not standing out, you know, keep your head down, do the work, you'll be recognized. Like, don't raise your hand, don't make a fuss, don't draw attention to yourself. And
Ruth Penfold (08:13)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (08:14)
so from early on, like all my reports got like, Sylvia's a good student, but she's just so shy. You know, she needs to speak up more. And so from an early age, I think because of my natural sort of introverted nature, I already told myself, like, I I'm just not a leader.
Sylvia Kwan (08:32)
And it was not a it's not a bad thing. It was like, I'll never be you know, I it it was not something I lamented. It was just I I don't wanna be that. Like I just
Ruth Penfold (08:40)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (08:40)
like I'm not I'm not a leader, and I'm not in you know, I'm never gonna be, you know, speaking in public, like that's just not my thing, right? I I love numbers, I'm very comfortable with analytics, like that's kind of my sweet spot. And so just from an early age, I always just felt I'm just not going to be a leader. And
Sylvia Kwan (09:01)
even when I joined L of S as its chief investment officer, I remember telling the CEO at the time, our founder, Sally Kropchak, and I'm like, just let you know, like I I don't ever want to be the CEO.
Sylvia Kwan (09:12)
And you know, I was like, hey, I I I think I am best as best supporting actress. Like that's my role. Like I don't mind
Ruth Penfold (09:19)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (09:20)
being on the stage. I just don't want to be in the spotlight. And I don't want to be where the buck stops. That was my
Ruth Penfold (09:25)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (09:25)
number one thing. I do not want to be where the buck stops. So I just don't, I just don't want to do it. So I love being kind of just the the best supporting actress. Like that's what I love doing. And
Ruth Penfold (09:36)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (09:36)
so that was just my my my mantra.
Sylvia Kwan (09:41)
And so when Sally needed to step down from her role, it was like, you know, I I gotta make a decision fast. I don't really have time to think about it. I already knew, you know, it it was this tension within myself. Like,
Ruth Penfold (09:58)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (09:59)
I don't want to do this. But at the same time, I really felt, you know, I'd been with L of S from the very beginning.
Sylvia Kwan (10:06)
I felt a real responsibility to the community
Ruth Penfold (10:10)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (10:12)
to really carry the torch forward. There is so much work that still needs to be done. And I think
Ruth Penfold (10:18)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (10:19)
there is just so much potential that L of S has. And this, the work to help close the gender wealth gap is so important to me personally and to our community.
Ruth Penfold (10:28)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (10:29)
It was just like, I gotta do this. This is
Ruth Penfold (10:32)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (10:32)
not, this is not my comfort spot.
Sylvia Kwan (10:35)
But I need to do
Ruth Penfold (10:35)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (10:35)
this right. And so I think, you know, at the very beginning, it was very very tactical. And as you mentioned, you know, my number one priority was obviously our clients, you know, our team, our shareholders, our community. It was like making sure that everyone felt good, you know, especially with someone, you know, as notable as invisible as Sally has been, you know, so I mean a way there was a lot of question.
Sylvia Kwan (11:01)
you know, well
Ruth Penfold (11:01)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (11:02)
what you know what what's gonna happen, you know. and so a lot of it was very like you didn't really have time to think about what was actually happening and you don't think about yourself as stepping into this leadership role is just like let's get to work.
Ruth Penfold (11:15)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (11:17)
which is in some sense, you know, where I'm more comfortable. like
Ruth Penfold (11:19)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (11:20)
let's roll up the sleeves, let's let's figure this out, let's, you know, make sure, you know, the company and and every you know clients are taken care of, you know, we're pivoting.
Sylvia Kwan (11:29)
our focus, our strategic focus. And so last year was just all about transition and kind of getting through that. And it wasn't, I
Ruth Penfold (11:37)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (11:37)
would say, until late last year that I I kind of had this had it had a moment to reflect a little bit of what it meant to be in this seat. And so I
Ruth Penfold (11:48)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (11:49)
I feel like I'm still processing that a little bit just because
Ruth Penfold (11:52)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (11:53)
it was in in many ways a somewhat a sudden
Sylvia Kwan (11:57)
transition. So
Ruth Penfold (11:58)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (11:58)
it wasn't like, I had time to like figure out, okay, what, you know, what what is my role going to be? And then he like, nope,
Ruth Penfold (12:03)
Right, right, right, right.
Sylvia Kwan (12:04)
no time to think. Like let's let's just jump in and you know let's let's get things done.
Ruth Penfold (12:08)
Yeah, yeah. You know, I think sometimes, Sylvia, the universe gets tired of waiting and knows that you're like some divine force knows that you're you might talk yourself out of it if you have longer.
Sylvia Kwan (12:24)
Yes, that's a good point.
Ruth Penfold (12:26)
So it's like, honey, because I mean, certainly that's exactly how my business was born, because it was literally like, no, I'm just gonna close this path and now the whoopsie, you're accidentally doing it. But I honestly, what you've just said is what I hear all the time. Like, you know, I'm not yeah, I just don't think I'm gonna be the leader or, you know, at every level actually of leadership too, right? So like whether it's first
Ruth Penfold (12:54)
Leadership role, I don't know whether it's the mid, yeah, but I'm not sure about exec and then leading the exec. Like, you know, like the it's like the sort of sword falls upon you and then you're like,
Sylvia Kwan (13:08)
Ha ha ha.
Ruth Penfold (13:09)
wait a minute, really? and so I'm just so glad that you said that because I think so many, so many women can find ourselves in that, right?
Sylvia Kwan (13:19)
Yeah.
Ruth Penfold (13:19)
So thank
Sylvia Kwan (13:20)
Yeah.
Ruth Penfold (13:20)
you for your honesty. Thank you for creating that space for us there to also be honest. But tell us if we're that person right now, if I'm the like, yeah, I just don't think I'm that leader person, not really. I think I'm more of a best supporting actor, right? Then what would you say to that version of you now? What do you see from the other side now that you're starting to land, albeit that it's still relatively new?
Ruth Penfold (13:47)
But like what would you say to that version of you now?
Sylvia Kwan (13:50)
I would say not to let the scripts we have written for ourselves and the stories that we have told ourselves limit our options. You know, honestly, I think, you know, if this hadn't happened, I would have still been very happy with the career that I've had. I don't think I would have been like, darn it, you know, I've never, you know, I've I I regret never having been, you know, stretched for a CEO. Like I
Sylvia Kwan (14:19)
I don't think I that would have happened. certainly I've, you know, I've grown from this experience, which has been amazing. but I think it's it's really not allowing you know, what our our beliefs about ourselves and what
Ruth Penfold (14:34)
Right.
Sylvia Kwan (14:34)
we're capable of. keep us from options. And I wanna like to say options because, you know, it's not, you know, every path is not for everybody, right? But it's really about.
Sylvia Kwan (14:44)
Making sure you're not closing off options because of how how you you're feeling internally and what you've told yourself.
Ruth Penfold (14:54)
Absolutely agree. And actually that's a bit, that's at the heart of the work that I do with a lot of women in leadership is this kind of like shadow work. It's the like, what's the adaptations that first of all you've made to you and yourself and how you show up in order to be safe, right? Makes sense that you did that. Like who we've become is a rational reaction to the environment we find ourselves
Sylvia Kwan (15:18)
That's right.
Ruth Penfold (15:18)
in, right? And let's get real. Who are you really underneath all that?
Sylvia Kwan (15:22)
Yeah.
Ruth Penfold (15:23)
And and actually, okay, so we've said that we're not this person. It's like, so for me, Sylvia, I'm like 50-50 introvert extrovert,
Sylvia Kwan (15:33)
Yeah.
Ruth Penfold (15:34)
right? I present though, in this context, quite extroverted, right? But
Sylvia Kwan (15:38)
Right.
Ruth Penfold (15:39)
I I actually am more extroverted than I realized because I was better and I became aware of this little voice that was like, speak to this person, say this thing. And yet, before that voice was able to leap out of me.
Ruth Penfold (15:53)
Something in me was like mm mm mm mm mm
Sylvia Kwan (15:55)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (15:56)
Zip.
Ruth Penfold (15:59)
You can't make me.
Ruth Penfold (16:00)
Right? and that's part of what got me curious was actually like, wait, like, but then what's real what's the real me then? Right?
Sylvia Kwan (16:09)
Yes,
Sylvia Kwan (16:09)
exactly. And you know, I I think I also had a very narrow definition of what it means to be a leader.
Ruth Penfold (16:18)
Mmm Yes, that part. Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (16:20)
which has changed. And I remember
Sylvia Kwan (16:23)
like very early in my career, I was talking to one of our the company's kind of internal head of people operations, you know, kind of just about career development, things like that. And and she was like, I remember her saying, Sylvia, like I I think, you know, I imagine for you, like I see you running a large division, like at a large investment firm. And
Ruth Penfold (16:44)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Kwan (16:47)
I remember thinking
Sylvia Kwan (16:48)
Ugh, I don't want to do that. Like, that is not appealing to me at all. Like,
Ruth Penfold (16:54)
Right.
Sylvia Kwan (16:55)
you know, for various reasons. And and then I was just like, ugh, you know, if that's what a leader is like, I am not interested, right? And so, and I always kind of thought of a leader as the just the person at the top, you know,
Ruth Penfold (17:06)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (17:07)
which is just not true, first of all, but that was kind of really my definition. And so if that was my
Sylvia Kwan (17:14)
kind of lens like I was just like, I'm not, you know, I'm not a leader, I'm not a leader. And then I think the other thing that I've really learned is there are so many different types of leaders. I mean, duh, right? You know this better than anybody. But
Ruth Penfold (17:24)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (17:25)
for me, it was like, you know, especially, you know, stepping into you know the huge shoes of Sally and and just the dynamic
Ruth Penfold (17:32)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (17:33)
visionary leader that she is, partner
Ruth Penfold (17:36)
Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Kwan (17:36)
was like, I can never be that. And that's true.
Ruth Penfold (17:39)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (17:40)
I I you know, I am j I am not a Sally, like I am not that kind of that type of leader with the vision, right? I'm a different I would say different kind of leader. And I think wrapping my head around that is also something that is a process that I've been grappling with a little bit.
Ruth Penfold (17:58)
Yeah. I love what you're talking about. 'Cause actually when I was coming up through the ranks and I looked at leaders and I looked at women in leadership even, you know, like the be women that I would have worked with in the naughty and the right and the late nineties. And
Sylvia Kwan (18:13)
Yes.
Ruth Penfold (18:14)
I was like, I don't I didn't I don't want that, right? So I found
Sylvia Kwan (18:17)
Right.
Ruth Penfold (18:18)
myself actually looking and taking a lot of
Ruth Penfold (18:23)
A lot of my leadership learnings from more like community leaders, from more like
Sylvia Kwan (18:28)
Mm.
Ruth Penfold (18:29)
you know, like other parts of the world where I was like, no, that person's embodying what I want to embody. Ha hang on a minute. I've been given this great big heart that cares deeply about the world around me. I can't not lead with that. Does that make me wrong? No, okay, so how can I find a way to be me whilst also leading? And and actually start to then.
Ruth Penfold (18:53)
Really create a a form of visible leadership that the world can see, Sylvia, that actually embodies different characteristics, that we're not all the
Sylvia Kwan (19:01)
That's right.
Ruth Penfold (19:02)
same, that some of us lead more with this and some of us lead more with that. But guess what? Leadership teams need all of it.
Sylvia Kwan (19:10)
All of it. Yes.
Sylvia Kwan (19:11)
All of the above. Yes. The more differences
Ruth Penfold (19:13)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (19:17)
in different perspectives, I think the stronger.
Ruth Penfold (19:20)
Same, hard same. Now, I cannot I cannot give us enough time for wealth care because predominantly women are going to be listening to this. and one of the things that Sylvia and I were talking about, and this is what I really deeply believe too, is that women and others have plenty of reason to feel like the world has been harder for us, right?
Sylvia Kwan (19:44)
Mm-hmm.
Ruth Penfold (19:45)
There are many reasons for that, but standing in standing in taking ownership for what our experiences are and really being intentional about the kind of world that we want to co-create means coming out of any semblance of victimhood actually into really kind of like progressive solutions creation,
Sylvia Kwan (20:10)
Yes.
Ruth Penfold (20:10)
right? Like, so like
Ruth Penfold (20:12)
Let's be intentional. Okay, so this isn't working. We can either sit back and say this isn't working, or we can say, actually, here's how we create something better. And as soon as I heard the phrase wealthcare, I'm like, this is this is visionary creating something better energy. So please tell us all about it.
Sylvia Kwan (20:32)
Yes, I'd love to. One of my
Sylvia Kwan (20:34)
favorite, favorite topics. how much time do we have? No, I'm just kidding.
Ruth Penfold (20:37)
Yeah,
Ruth Penfold (20:37)
literally. I'm like, we can run over, don't worry about that, we'll be fine.
Sylvia Kwan (20:41)
Okay, got it.
Sylvia Kwan (20:42)
so I want to give a little bit of background in case your listeners are not don't come from the financial industry. So Elavest, we are an investment advice advisory firm. We're registered with the SEC and basically we focus on helping women and families build wealth with intention. And so we basically are a wealth management firm. And
Sylvia Kwan (21:06)
If anybody, if any of your listeners are from the industry, you will know that our industry is very focused, really obsessed, I would say, with the numbers, with returns. So our job is to optimize portfolios, beat the market. and there's this notion of hey, if we can help our clients get wealthier, well, you know.
Sylvia Kwan (21:31)
Clients, wealthier clients will be happier clients and it's a win-win all around.
Sylvia Kwan (21:35)
And what we've discovered through our work at L of Vest is that's not always the case, that
Ruth Penfold (21:40)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (21:41)
even our wealthiest clients have underlying kind of a baseline kind of anxiety. And so what I realized is we shouldn't be looking just at the numbers as our measure of success. And in fact, there needs to be a more holistic approach to wealth management. One, I call it a functional.
Sylvia Kwan (22:03)
kind of expanded approach to wealth management where yes, we are obviously working to build wealth, but what's more important is really how do we optimize your life? How
Ruth Penfold (22:16)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (22:16)
do we optimize your well-being? And particularly this, you know, as you might imagine resonates with women and certainly with younger generations as well. And the idea is like, hey, if you are not living your best life and having your wealth support that,
Sylvia Kwan (22:30)
Then what's the point of having more of it? It
Ruth Penfold (22:33)
Right.
Sylvia Kwan (22:33)
it doesn't make any sense. And so oftentimes in the finance world, and this is where, you know, having spent my entire career in finance, like and being very comfortable with numbers, right? Sometimes the wealth optimizing answer, like the right
Ruth Penfold (22:50)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (22:50)
answer from a financial perspective, is not the right answer from a life optimization perspective.
Ruth Penfold (22:58)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (22:58)
But in the wealth management industry, we're we're we're not trained to do that. It's like, of course, you should never pay off your low-rate mortgage. Like you could do so much better. Like you can have so much more wealth if you put that money into the market and do it for the long term. Like that is the wealth maximizing answer that every advisor knows. But if a client is continuously feeling burdened by having this
Ruth Penfold (23:21)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (23:21)
debt and they have the ability and the capability to pay off that mortgage.
Sylvia Kwan (23:27)
what a difference that could make to that client's well-being.
Ruth Penfold (23:31)
Right.
Sylvia Kwan (23:32)
And so it's I I I like to talk a little bit in the context of healthcare. it's a great corollary to healthcare, right? And you know all of us know, you know, some of the some of the measures of excellent health is in kind of the blood test, right? You
Ruth Penfold (23:48)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (23:49)
know, your cholesterol level and your triglycerides and your blood pressure and all this kind of stuff. We all aim for certain numbers.
Sylvia Kwan (23:56)
And you know, when I think about it as like, okay, I can go and get a blood test and I can have perfect results. And
Ruth Penfold (24:03)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (24:03)
they'll be like, Sylvia, you're in excellent health. But if I'm not able to go out on the weekend and ride my bike for 30 miles, which I love to do, and not feel so tired at the end of the day I can't go out, or if I can't lift my luggage into the overhead compartment without straining, like to me that's that's not a good outcome.
Ruth Penfold (24:24)
Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Kwan (24:25)
Even
Sylvia Kwan (24:25)
though my markers might be excellent, that is not a good outcome. And so similarly, hey, if your portfolio is outperforming every year, like, my gosh, you're so successful. But i i if you are not living the life you want to live, if you're not optimizing your well-being, that's not a good outcome. And
Ruth Penfold (24:42)
No.
Sylvia Kwan (24:42)
so we really want to focus is what is the purpose of the wealth, what is the outcome for the wealth that you have, and really creating the financial plan to support.
Sylvia Kwan (24:55)
The life that you want to live.
Ruth Penfold (24:56)
Oof, I love that so much. Because what you're touching on here is something that we don't get to speak about enough, right? And that's and that's where our kind of world intersects, right? In a way.
Sylvia Kwan (25:08)
Yes.
Ruth Penfold (25:09)
because well, in many ways, which it's women and you know, and and all the rest of it, but
Sylvia Kwan (25:12)
Right.
Ruth Penfold (25:14)
it's this notion of our of what our some like I would call it our somatic capacity, the the capacity in our body to hold whatever it is.
Sylvia Kwan (25:23)
Mm,
Ruth Penfold (25:24)
So can my
Sylvia Kwan (25:24)
yes.
Ruth Penfold (25:25)
nervous system hold the uncertainty of a high degree of risk or a high mortgage or not? And actually,
Sylvia Kwan (25:34)
Yeah.
Ruth Penfold (25:35)
when we when we start to get into the world of almost like wealth building, even the term wealth is intimidating because at one point
Sylvia Kwan (25:42)
Mm-hmm.
Ruth Penfold (25:43)
you're like, well, you know, those of us who come from more modest backgrounds, right? Like,
Sylvia Kwan (25:47)
Right.
Ruth Penfold (25:48)
well, then what's what's wealth? At what point is that?
Ruth Penfold (25:52)
You know, is it where at what level do I get to in this hierarchy to feel like
Sylvia Kwan (25:56)
Yes.
Ruth Penfold (25:58)
I've made it to someone that who should be concentrating on so I I'd love us to look at that a little bit. but also just this the the the the the awareness that we need to create that look for many of us, we are the first in our bloodline, in our lineage, that's even attempting this stuff.
Ruth Penfold (26:19)
Which means everything in your body is programmed to try to preserve the safety of safety of your
Sylvia Kwan (26:26)
That's right.
Ruth Penfold (26:26)
life, which means stick with what I know because it's safer. So anytime
Sylvia Kwan (26:31)
Yes.
Ruth Penfold (26:32)
we try to do more, be more, create more, say yes to the big job, say yes to you know, like many of us will unconsciously sabotage that thing and say no because the body's like, I can't hold that.
Sylvia Kwan (26:46)
That's right.
Ruth Penfold (26:47)
I can't hold it, it's too much.
Ruth Penfold (26:49)
I'd love to hear your view on that.
Sylvia Kwan (26:51)
Yes. I think you raise a a great point. I think a lot of us have the a mindset of scarcity, as you said, right? There's
Ruth Penfold (26:59)
Mm. Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (27:01)
some some I don't know if it's like just unconsciously like, I I gotta keep what I have.
Ruth Penfold (27:09)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (27:09)
I gotta hold on to what I have because it's there's some scarcity involved. And so I
Sylvia Kwan (27:16)
I I would love for that mindset to shift to more about like living generously.
Sylvia Kwan (27:23)
Like, is there a way to think bigger
Ruth Penfold (27:28)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (27:29)
as opposed to holding on to what we have? And
Ruth Penfold (27:34)
Right.
Sylvia Kwan (27:34)
I think, you know, there's so many kind of things that we've uncovered at L Ovest with respect,
Ruth Penfold (27:40)
Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Kwan (27:40)
you know, specifically to
Sylvia Kwan (27:42)
you know, why more women are sitting on the sidelines when it comes to investing, whereas like women are women are great savers, right? And so we are great savers. And
Ruth Penfold (27:48)
We are great.
Sylvia Kwan (27:52)
but the point is if you're only saving and putting that money in the bank and it's not growing, like it it feels safe.
Ruth Penfold (28:00)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (28:00)
It feels safe, right? But the opportunity costs and the opportunity for for building wealth if you're just saving and not investing is enormous.
Ruth Penfold (28:10)
Yes.
Sylvia Kwan (28:11)
you know, over decades because of the compounding. And so I think it's really flipping that mindset. It's not it's not
Ruth Penfold (28:17)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (28:18)
about, women need to take more risk and women are too risk-averse. And that's why women are not wealthy. Like that's not
Ruth Penfold (28:23)
Mm mm.
Sylvia Kwan (28:23)
the case, right? It's, you know, women are more risk aware. They they want to understand the risk and and they want to understand like, I I see that I'm actually leaving a lot of money on the table
Sylvia Kwan (28:36)
by doing this, right? And I think it's that realization and also
Sylvia Kwan (28:40)
I think it's the realization that, you know, money, money is power, you know, whether you like it or not,
Ruth Penfold (28:45)
Yes.
Sylvia Kwan (28:46)
right? And I think women are really, first of all, women are coming into greater economic power. And what we really are focused on at L of S is really helping understand, helping women understand that there is power in their capital. I don't care how how much or how little you have. You
Ruth Penfold (29:01)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (29:02)
do have power in that. And you we want women to embrace that power.
Ruth Penfold (29:06)
Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Kwan (29:07)
And
Sylvia Kwan (29:07)
if you are not embracing that power and using that power intentionally, then you are
Ruth Penfold (29:12)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (29:12)
in essence giving away that.
Ruth Penfold (29:14)
Mm. So if I'm a woman right now with a little bit of savings and I'm like, you know what? What could this look like for me? What what really practical advice would you give someone who's in that situation about kind of where to get started? And is that something that that you actually support women with in any way?
Sylvia Kwan (29:35)
Yeah, so if if you are just g getting started, let's say you're, you know, just out of college, for example,
Ruth Penfold (29:41)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (29:42)
I encourage all women, regardless of whether you're age, whatever age and stage that you're in, if you have not started investing, like that is the number one thing.
Ruth Penfold (29:52)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (29:52)
although I say before that, make sure you have built up a sufficient emergency kind of fund to cover expenses.
Ruth Penfold (29:59)
Yes.
Sylvia Kwan (29:59)
So do that first.
Sylvia Kwan (30:01)
But anything that you have in excess of that, like don't keep it in the bank. You know,
Ruth Penfold (30:05)
Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Kwan (30:06)
start investing. And it doesn't not have to be complicated. You know, there's a lot of great platforms out there where you can invest in a well-diversified portfolio, hold it for the long term. That's really how wealth is gonna be built over the long term. And
Ruth Penfold (30:19)
Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Kwan (30:20)
also it doesn't have to be I encourage women, sometimes they feel like, well, what if I, you know.
Sylvia Kwan (30:25)
Put it all in the market on the wrong day, you know. I don't know if there's such thing as wrong day, but kind of like feeling
Ruth Penfold (30:29)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (30:30)
that regret. And so for for them, I'm like, hey, put in ten dollars a month if that's all it's all, you know, don't feel like, I've got to accumulate, you know, a thousand dollars or a hundred thousand or whatever the number might be before I get started. Like get started now with
Ruth Penfold (30:45)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (30:45)
whatever amount you have and build that habit over time.
Ruth Penfold (30:49)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (30:50)
And that is gonna build your confidence in terms of.
Ruth Penfold (30:54)
So true.
Sylvia Kwan (30:54)
Investing.
Ruth Penfold (30:55)
So true. Cause it's like building a muscle in the gym, right? And
Sylvia Kwan (30:58)
That's right.
Ruth Penfold (31:00)
we don't go into the gym and go and lift the heaviest weight and then think that we can just do that. Right. So
Sylvia Kwan (31:02)
Exactly. We're and then we're done.
Ruth Penfold (31:06)
like, and literally, I mean, I I would actually say with any healthy habit, like one of my favorite sayings that I use all the time is don't try to swallow the watermelon hole. Cut it into slices, right?
Ruth Penfold (31:18)
So what's the first slice of your watermelon? If it's for wellness, it might be waking up 15 minutes earlier to give yourself a bit more, you know, like these tiny little experiments,
Sylvia Kwan (31:28)
Exactly.
Ruth Penfold (31:29)
right? And there's some, and what you've just described there are like the perfect thing. Okay, maybe it's like $10 a week into something
Sylvia Kwan (31:37)
Yes.
Ruth Penfold (31:37)
or something that that you don't even feel in the beginning, but then
Sylvia Kwan (31:42)
Right.
Ruth Penfold (31:42)
you start to go, okay, you know.
Ruth Penfold (31:46)
I can actually see that this could go somewhere. You know, this is essentially a cup in some of our cities in America a cup of coffee.
Sylvia Kwan (31:52)
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, I think I I love kind of the kind of just the small habits, the small
Ruth Penfold (32:00)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (32:01)
pieces that you build over time. Because I think one of the big misperceptions in the kind of investing world is that, well, you know, women are just not confident.
Ruth Penfold (32:11)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (32:11)
And that's why they're not investing. Women are
Ruth Penfold (32:14)
Right.
Sylvia Kwan (32:14)
not confident. And I, you know, I think we have really that.
Sylvia Kwan (32:19)
That kind of upside down, that kind of notion of confidence. Like we think about leaders, for example, going back to a leadership conversation, like, you know, these people had so much confidence, and that's why they become leaders. I'm like,
Ruth Penfold (32:30)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (32:31)
no, actually, I think it's the other way around. In
Ruth Penfold (32:33)
Rights.
Sylvia Kwan (32:34)
the sense that confidence is not the prerequisite, it's the outcome. It's the
Ruth Penfold (32:38)
Mm mm, yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (32:39)
outcome of action. And so, in some sense, you know, action is the thing that breeds confidence.
Sylvia Kwan (32:45)
And I'm not talking big
Ruth Penfold (32:46)
So true.
Sylvia Kwan (32:46)
actions is exactly what you said, getting up 15 minutes earlier and when it comes to investing, it may mean starting to create an emergency fund or making
Ruth Penfold (32:55)
Right.
Sylvia Kwan (32:55)
an appointment with a financial planner or investing your friend first ten dollars, right? It's all of these small actions that really add up and build the confidence. And
Ruth Penfold (33:06)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (33:07)
so you know, I I like to think about it in that sense, like you know, you know, just the fact that you, you know, don't wait.
Sylvia Kwan (33:14)
for somehow confidence to magically come, you know,
Ruth Penfold (33:18)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (33:18)
and you're not gonna get confident by reading, you know, 10 investment books. Like it's you're gonna gain confidence by cre creating these small actions.
Ruth Penfold (33:26)
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. And I actually, like in the broader sense, I think we are all innately confident.
Sylvia Kwan (33:35)
Yes.
Ruth Penfold (33:36)
when somebody has a confidence issue, invariably it's more it to my mind, it's a safety issue every time, right?
Sylvia Kwan (33:43)
Yes.
Ruth Penfold (33:44)
It's I don't feel safe in the room that I'm in, and therefore now the best thinking part of my brain's gonna go offline and I'm in a stress response and I don't know I'm in a stress response,
Sylvia Kwan (33:53)
Yeah.
Ruth Penfold (33:54)
right?
Ruth Penfold (33:55)
but to your point then, the way that if we're looking at something like in building confidence in investing, it's it's creating safety. So like anything that we want to try that we're not doing right now, how do we make it safer for and under like almost just be more a little bit more gentle with ourselves, right? Like
Sylvia Kwan (34:18)
Yes.
Ruth Penfold (34:19)
women couldn't even have bank accounts 50 years ago, for goodness sake.
Sylvia Kwan (34:21)
I know. Exactly.
Sylvia Kwan (34:23)
Or credit cards. Yeah. In their own name. Yeah.
Ruth Penfold (34:24)
Right? You know, like, right,
Ruth Penfold (34:27)
like, so give ourselves grace. We are the way we are for good reason. And
Sylvia Kwan (34:30)
Yes. Yes.
Ruth Penfold (34:34)
the only thing that's gonna shift it is us choosing choosing to shift it.
Sylvia Kwan (34:37)
Exactly.
Sylvia Kwan (34:40)
Exactly right. Exactly right. And I think we are living in a pivotal moment for that.
Ruth Penfold (34:46)
I think so too, yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (34:47)
And it is our it is our opportunity to really grasp.
Ruth Penfold (34:51)
Mmm, I love that so much. And we are like, I know that some things are less than desirable for women in the world right now, still,
Sylvia Kwan (35:00)
Yeah.
Ruth Penfold (35:01)
but I'm actually very excited. I don't feel like we've had a moment quite like this before where
Sylvia Kwan (35:06)
I agree.
Ruth Penfold (35:07)
where women are as in informed as we are, where we're actually realizing how much real tangible value we
Sylvia Kwan (35:16)
Yes.
Ruth Penfold (35:17)
bring in the world. you know.
Ruth Penfold (35:19)
Tiny thing like birthing all of humanity.
Sylvia Kwan (35:21)
Ha ha ha.
Sylvia Kwan (35:24)
So true.
Ruth Penfold (35:25)
Just tiny footnote over
Sylvia Kwan (35:26)
Yes.
Ruth Penfold (35:27)
here. But tell me, Sylvia, to to sort of close us out, what's one thing that you wish that you had known sooner in your career? Is there something?
Sylvia Kwan (35:42)
There are many things. I'm just trying to decide which one. I think I I think it's really for me not setting this expectation of perfection. And that's kind of related to kind of earlier in my career where I I turned down a great job because I didn't check all those boxes or I didn't feel,
Ruth Penfold (36:06)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (36:06)
you know, in in in really
Sylvia Kwan (36:08)
what I was really doing is like, I'm not the perfect person for this job because I didn't check all ten boxes. I only got like eight, right?
Ruth Penfold (36:15)
Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Kwan (36:15)
And in everything that I do is like, you can't wait until you get it perfect because there's no such thing.
Ruth Penfold (36:21)
No
Sylvia Kwan (36:21)
And I think that applies in in in many and I mean it's particularly applies I think to women who, you know, we're all perfectionists. Like we really try to shoot, you know, shoot
Ruth Penfold (36:30)
We are
Sylvia Kwan (36:31)
for everything and and and just realizing that hey there there there isn't such thing.
Sylvia Kwan (36:36)
Like it's really more of a journey as opposed to one and done. And if you are making progress towards that, that's really the best that can that
Ruth Penfold (36:46)
Yeah.
Sylvia Kwan (36:47)
can be.
Ruth Penfold (36:48)
Yeah, goodness. You will well, I'm sure you can imagine how many times I've actually ended up coaching women to accept a job that they've been offered that they're worried
Sylvia Kwan (36:58)
Ha ha.
Ruth Penfold (36:59)
that they have are underqualified for.
Sylvia Kwan (37:02)
I
Sylvia Kwan (37:02)
wish I had you at that time, Ruth.
Ruth Penfold (37:04)
Or like they're worried about how good the offer is. You know what I mean? Like,
Sylvia Kwan (37:07)
Yes.
Ruth Penfold (37:07)
but if they're paying me this much, then what does that mean for right? You know, but but woo.
Sylvia Kwan (37:10)
Right, yes. Yeah. Ooh, the expectation's too high.
Ruth Penfold (37:15)
my goodness, this was such a delight. And I just know that there is so much usefulness in this conversation. Like, thank you for owning your journey with us. thank you for saying that you didn't want leadership.
Sylvia Kwan (37:30)
Ha
Sylvia Kwan (37:30)
ha.
Ruth Penfold (37:31)
because like if we're gonna get the number of women that I would like us to have in leadership, the ones of us that are like I don't really want leadership, like we need you, babe. Sorry, this of this is your the phone is ringing right now and it's for you.
Sylvia Kwan (37:48)
Exactly. No, this
Sylvia Kwan (37:50)
I've enjoyed this conversation so much, Ruth. Thank you so much for having me.
Ruth Penfold (37:54)
thank you. And if people want to find you, Sylvia, what's the best way for them to do that? I I respect that you have an incredibly busy role, but if people do want to reach out, what's the best way for them to do that?
Sylvia Kwan (38:06)
The best ways are probably through LinkedIn. You can connect with
Ruth Penfold (38:09)
Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Kwan (38:09)
me on LinkedIn and also L of S. Follow L of S on LinkedIn. We have a ton of content sort of in this area. We talk about wealthcare all the time. That's
Ruth Penfold (38:18)
Mm.
Sylvia Kwan (38:18)
a great place. Come to our website, L of S.com. If you are looking to get more clarity, I would say, with a financial plan, you're welcome to book a complimentary consultation with one of our financial advisors as well.
Ruth Penfold (38:33)
Mm, beautiful. Thank you so much. This was honestly such a precious gift. Thank you.
Sylvia Kwan (38:39)
Thank
Sylvia Kwan (38:39)
you, Ruth.
